Where To Start

[EasyGoingPatrick]

Hi,

All my life, I have dreamt of owning my own yacht. At the approaching-sell-by age of 48, this finally may be a possibility. Even with the grace of God, my yachting career is not likely to be more than 20 years or so, and therefore I don't have the luxury of learning the ropes by years of experience - which I acknowledge is probably the best way to learn. So, at the risk of displaying nothing but naive ignorance, I thought I would start here on this forum. I have a million questions. I'll start with possibly the main one and take it from there.

Okay, I have done a fair bit of reading about the realities of yachting, and I have a pretty good idea of the characteristics I would like in any yacht I buy. I don't yet know what my budget will be, but it is unlikely to be above 100k. I want a yacht that favours ocean-going safety over performance, and I would like her to be big enough to live onboard for periods of a few weeks. There seems to be a bewildering number of manufacturers and models, and I don't really know where to start, trying to pick out likely candidates.

So, my question is: is anyone aware of any kind of a general guide to yachts? Is there, for example, any manufacturer with a reputation for over-engineering or for building true ocean-going yachts? I'm not planning to sail around the world (yet), but the seas around Britain and the west coast of France are no joke, and I have enough doubts about my own abilities, without having to worry that my choice of yacht is just not up to the job.

Sorry for the general (and long-winded) nature of this post. I'm just trying to 'feel' my way in here.

Kind wishes - Patrick

[Discus]

Hi Patrick

As you have eluded too, there probably isn't a straightforward answer to your question. There are many people in all sorts of boats that can go all over the place. You seem to want a boat that can take you wherever you want to go, safely, in comfort and favours sea keeping ability over outright speed. I suggest you look at some of the Scandinavian manufactures, Halberg Rassy, Malo, Naiad etc. Although you wont get a brandnew one in your budget, you could certainly get a good used example. If you are going to be mainly single handed, iI would stay under 40ft in length or you may not find it much fun to sail and park on your own. You most certainly will be looking for a fin keeled boat or a long keeler if you value sea keeping over outright performance. The thing is, there is a lot of choice out there and lots of folk happily sail long distances in more modest production yachts from the big French and German manufacturers. Think about say the top 10 most desirable things you would want from a boat and share them here. Collective wisdom will then be able to help you narrow your search. Also try to get yourself out on a few different types of boat, it will help you decide what you really need. Bounce some ideas around on here about boats you like and you are bound to uncover the pros and cons.
By the way, your approach to this is spot on. Gather as much info as you can.

Rob

[EasyGoingPatrick]

Hi, Rob,

Thank you for your reply and advice. I will certainly do as you suggest and create a list of my most desirable features of a yacht, but I have one question I'd like to address first, as it seems to me to be perhaps the biggest by far (though I could easily be wrong).

The question is to do with choice of hull. The guy who first got me interested in yachting almost thirty years ago built himself a 63' ferro cement yacht. His view was that there is far too much chance of a collision with a floating object for him to risk his life to GRP. I tend to share his philosophy - especially now, with the reported number of shipping containers that are lost overboard every year.

Discounting wood (because I understand it requires a lot of maintenance), what material is best for a yacht designed for safety over performance? What are the relative differences/benefits/disadvantages of steel versus ferro cement? I am also attracted to idea of double-skinned GRP, which are often touted as unsinkable (though spending a week adrift on one floating half of a destroyed yacht is not a thought I relish).

Does anyone know of any good articles written on this subject? Does anyone have a strongly preferred hull choice and why? If I decided, say, that I wanted a steel-hulled yacht, is there any way to get a list of at least some of these?

Kind wishes ~ Patrick

[Discus]

Aargh! Just lost a really long reply to your questions! B***ocks!!

Long answer short - you are unlikely to hit a shipping container, if you did, all types of hull are susceptible to being breached. If you are concerned, fit a forward looking sonar, it will give you some warning!

www.ferrocement.org/index.html will give you chapter and verse on ferro boats. Windboats were a major professional manufacturer of ferro boats.

Yachtworld UK will allow you to search using keywords steel and ferro cement.

Rob

[EasyGoingPatrick]

That ferrocement website you gave me a link to, Rob, is brilliant. I don't know, the boats on there just 'feel' right to me. Obviously, I'll do a lot more research first. Thanks for your help.

- Patrick

[Discus]

My grandad actually plastered several ferro cement hulls in the late 70's and early 80's. Mainly Endurance's and Hartleys. Professionally built ferro boats are few and far between as it was difficult to get a consistent end product like you can with fibreglass. Windboats of Wroxham were the biggest professional builders in the UK and used a patented form of ferro called seacrete which had an epoxy added to the mix. Many of their hulls were built to lloyds standard. The main issue with ferro is that they can be difficult to insure as a result of the variable build quality and the fact that many were knocked out by enthusiastic owners who felt it was a cheaper way into a bigger boat. Some amateur shockers included using chicken wire for the hull former or steel armature that was prone to rusting which blows out the surrounding ferro. If you can find a good one, they are an economical way into a blue water boat. The Endurance 35 and 40 in particular are excellent designs that have been built in ferro, GRP and steel. One Endurance my Grandad plastered was launched into the Bristol Channel and sailed off to Australia, arriving safely about a year later. Fortunately, lots of info on the web to make an informed choice. I think Mike Peyton, the yachting Monthly cartoonist had two ferro boats - gemstone being one I think. Also saw one called 'Gypsum Moth' - owner obviously having a sense of humour.

Rob

[EasyGoingPatrick]

Got to admit, you've worried me there, Rob. Can a professional surveyor be relied upon to sort the wheat from the chicken wire?

- Patrick

[Discus]

A surveyor familiar with ferro construction should be able to give you the lowdown. Quite a few insurers will run a mile from a ferro boat - that isn't to say they are uninsurable but will command about a 30% increase in premium. Professionally built ones are usually OKbut as with all boats, its buyer beware. Perhaps the other downside is they can be hard to sell on as there is always a stigma attached to ferro boats - mainly due to an abundance of poorly constructed or fitted out examples.

Rob

[EasyGoingPatrick]

...very much for the info, Rob. Much appreciated

[Jeff]

Really interesting reading all this. Thanks Rob!

If I was you Patrick, based on my own experience of thinking each boat I bought was definitely _it_, only to sell it within 2 or 3 years and get another, then I'd go plastic for the simple reason that they're easier to sell on.

You'd make back any extra expense in purchase when you sell. And if your surveyor was wrong - would be a right pita.

[EasyGoingPatrick]

Thank you for the advice, and it does sound good. I've certainly got nothing against GRP. How can I have? I've never sailed seriously and - as was mentioned I think - countless people have safely crossed the world's toughest seas in GRP hulls. So who am I to question their wisdom?

At the risk of breaking etiquette by starting a completely new topic, could anyone comment on steel - the pros and cons?


- Patrick

[Jeff]

Rob will no doubt add to this (and tell me I'm wrong hehe) but:

1. Hard to survey well without expensive specialist equipment. How thick is the plate? Impossible to tell!
2. Hard to sell - much less popular than plastic.
3. Heavy, so more boat in the water, so needs more sail area to achieve cruising speed (I postulate this, not actually sure).
4. They rust - you'll have to keep on top of it. Not as bad as a wooden boat, but worse than a plastic boat (you just wash them).
5. They tend to have homemade interiors which vary considerably in quality.
6. You have to be on top of the galvanic corrosion issue which could literally eat a hole in the bottom of your boat if you don't wire things up right, and have enough anodes in the right places (I think).
7. Harder to patch up if they do get damaged.

But

8. Tough as old boots if they're thick enough still.



Get a plastic boat with 15mm thick solid (not 2/3mm + sandwich like some modern boats) GRP. Built like a tank ours.


It's a pain, but the re-sale and maintenance issues will really (I think) be detrimental to your boating experience. There's enough to be worrying about and maintaining without also having to be faffing on with rust removal/protection etc.

[EasyGoingPatrick]

...Halberg-Rassey or Oyster it is then. Now where did I leave my inadequately-sized chequebook.

[Jeff]

You don't need to spend anywhere near 100k to get a very good, safe, 'big', boat unless you're dead set on getting a new boat.

Westerly Yachts are excellent, well built, safe, reliable and comfortable - and cheap.

Older Nauticats aren't crazy prices either.

Halberg Rasseys are nice but for the size of boat the accommodation always seems very small. We lived for 3 (ish) years on a 30 foot Westerly Tempest. When we looked to upgrade we looked around a few 36 foot Halbergs and they really didn't seem much bigger. Lots of lovely joinery taking up all the space.

We're going back to living on land at some point in the next year or two. If you're not in a rush and want a LOT of boat for your money, consider ours. We'll probably be looking for ~£55k. Lots of pics in my blog. Eg: viewtopic.php?t=603

[EasyGoingPatrick]

Just had a quick look, Rob, and, yes, she looks, at first glance, very appealing to me. Always liked the look of the ketch rig, for some reason. (Ignorance showing again.) What exactly is she? Do have any interior pics?

- Patrick